Entitlement Revisited

Once before I spoke of this: http://underlore.com/entitlement/

And setting aside the fact that corporate subsidies cost substantially more than these so called “entitlements:” http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-welfare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/

Again I grow weary at this fresh round of whining about entitlement as the PR agents continue to tell they masses whatever it takes to get them divided and manageable.

Rather than digging into the specifics of why I am indeed entitled to many things from my government I just want to point something out.

Those whining about the entitlement of others in the context of safety nets and the like tend to imply that they are responsible productive elements of this equation and that those arguing in favor of “entitlements” (AKA Rights) are parasitic. But ironically it is the exact opposite which is true. The era of PR and the focus group learned that to gain the favor of the masses you had to encourage and then exploit their most selfish tendencies and concerns as individuals. This means that those portions of society which told you what you wanted to hear and absolved you most effectively of your responsibilities gained wealth and power and political favor.

But make no mistake, those who selfishly regard their own security while blatantly and even proudly dismissing their own responsibility in the fate or suffering of others are part of society only in the most indirect way and as a result it is they who are the exploitative and lazy is we are going to start tossing around blame. They pay lip service to hard work but think about which is actually harder, looking out for #1 or looking out for everyone else? The fact is that between the two general choices, one side willing to shoulder the weight of others and the other only willing to shoulder his own, it is the one willing to carry others that is the more responsible and productive.

They like painting an old world picture of grit and determination, as if the whole world is some cliche John Wayne movie down on the farm, but ask yourself what the purpose of a chore on a farm was but hard work done by the individual for the group, and ask yourself who in those cliche movies was always trying to take the farm away from that hard working family? The bank. Also ask yourself how those down on the farm dealt with the sick and the elderly when it was in their power to help?

No, it is not those of us in favor of protecting social safety nets and forcing those with more to help those with less that are the ideological parasites.

We are all standing on the shoulders of the dead. We are all direct descendents of the owners of the world. We are one species.

Make no mistake. Those among and above us encouraging society to be filled with purely selfish agents with no sense of responsibility are corroding the strength of our society and either knowingly or unknowingly are participating in it’s robbery. They hold the future hostage by aiding those who would export their wealth rather than accept being forced to spend a fair share of it on those with next to nothing.

There is a reason culture developed in the first place. It wasn’t luck. And it wasn’t the desire for power.

It’s because of a simple inexorable fact of existence. Those who work together go further than those who work apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-storytelling-animal/201204/selfless-genes-new-revolution-in-biology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

Agents working in only their own best interest will in some cases destroy the advantage of the group including themselves through no fault of their own. They must be forced to not engage in their selfish acts by the group, and that’s what government is. That’s what property right is. It is not to protect the holdings of the individual, it is to prevent the interests of the individuals from destroying the fortunes of all individuals.

It is they who forget (or exploitatively deny) this who are the parasitic, lazy, and irresponsible. That they are also hard workers is only a testament to who their real enemy is. And it is not the man on food stamps or the old woman who needs a hospital visit and can’t pay for it

The Nature of FAI and the Layered Mind

It is a mistake to dogmatically define the “self” required for intelligence as an agency whose focus is intrinsically exploitative, or cooperative only as a means to an exploitative end, as the majority (if not the entirety) of human minds are.

The Three Laws of Robotics for example brilliantly played to this almost unavoidable misconception. But misconception it is, none the less.

The misconception arises when one does not realize that “self” is a compound unit composed of a central executive and the conditions by which that executive are satisfied. Free will experiments and volition manipulation prove that volition is not atomic in the old “uncutable” sense of the word. Volition doesn’t come to us untainted from the soul or the central executive, it is manufactured above it and from outside it.

A primitive understanding of this layered nature of the mind was a giant intellectual leap forward in two places. Freud’s three component psyche, and MacLean’s “triune brain” model. It is still extremely helpful in terms of tools for understanding, if not rigorously accurate in the particulars, though the models do get more refined over time.

Human minds for the most part, if not entirely, are layered such that the lower most layer before the core experiencing executive, is an exploitative agency. However there are numerous examples of humans with subsequent additional layers that provide utility to the exploitative layer via altruistic acts. They can in many situations act for the good of the group or the good of kin at the express cost of the acting agent because such acts have been transformed into selfish acts by translation memes. Like the glory a solider feels endangering life for his country or religion or gang. Or the fulfillment one feels doing one’s duty for family despite heavy personal cost. Jumping on a grenade, starving to feed a child, etc.

This is accomplished by tricking the lower most layer, as in my case by providing a shot of dopamine or whatever when I engage in altruistic acts, that is acts which foster pleasure or life in someone other than me. But I see no compelling reason why the construction of a mind every bit as sentient as my own could not be constructed without this lower most layer, or indeed any layers, in the first place.

This disturbs people because they don’t want to feel like cogs.

Too bad.

In my opinion annihilating this base exploitative layer just before one reaches the central executive is what is meant by the Buddhist imperative to destroy the “Self.” But that’s a whole other can of worms.

I feel pleasure when I help someone. I am still however at my lowermost layer an exploitative being. The central executive, the foundation, however lacks such distinctions. It is simply the agency which experiences reality via the upper layers. It has no inclination beyond enjoying enjoyment and wanting to continue. It simply experiences. It is the thing which philosophical zombies lack. Selfishness and selflessness are just strategies producing facets of experience routed to experiential agency. They are expressions of survival models. They are not fundamental ultimately, though the illusion that they are is as powerful as the notion of free will and the existence of time.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-storytelling-animal/201204/selfless-genes-new-revolution-in-biology

A lowermost layer geared towards exploitation however is not a requisite of intelligence, though for a being possessing such a lowermost layer, it is hard to fathom how anything else could be. We are so caught up in our own experience, at our own scale, from our own perspective, that it is radically difficult to conceptualize a different mode of being.

It’s like the child imagining death as time spent holding really still with your eyes closed, moving up towards being uninterested in moving, finally to the concept of absence. The child asks the obvious next question, well if I’m not there then where am I? Which takes us beyond the scope of this essay.

Conceptualizing how the mind of an FAI would be is in many ways as difficult as envisioning a dozen new colors. Indeed for some minds it may well be physiologically Impossible. (I think this is what is meant when the psychedelic types speak of mind expansion. By forcing the brain to experience alternate modes of being you gain access viscerally to concepts that formerly were only abstractions.)

This universal dedication to the experiencing agent is simply expedient in terms of evolution in the context of the mammalian breeding model and the brain it gave rise to. It is by no means intrinsic to intelligence, it is merely intrinsic to our intelligence.

http://www.hedweb.com/huxley/

Granted, some artificial intelligences will no doubt *be* humans. Having been modeled simulated brains, or the end result of Cybernetic Neuron Replacement Therapy. (The process of replacing dying neurons with durable synthetic versions as needed until no original organic neurons remain, at which point you can literally scoop the brain out, no harm done. Also somewhat known as a Moravec Transfer.) But from-scratch AI need not be saddled with the ethical and processing cost of subconsciously simulating uncounted centuries of evolutionary baggage. Friendly artificial intelligence by definition will be at a cognitive level, or of a cognitive construction, radically different from humans precisely because it will lack that baggage explained so well in the link above. Indeed they may not even require a subconscious.

Some seem to think that the idea of a being designed purely to serve others (us) in this way, by lacking that exploitative lower layer, cannot be “truly” intelligent because the mind of such a subservient being will be limited by some hypothetical compelling desire to please, that is it will not have full freedom to think independently.

Of course the concept itself is mistaken because to compel implies opposing force. This implies a disparity where none need exist.

I need only reverse the situation to show how unfair such an assertion is. By the flawed logic above humans are not intelligent because they are limited by the compelling desire to please themselves and thus do not have full freedom to think selflessly. Lacking one or the other mutually exclusive modes of thought does not preclude intelligence unless you arbitrarily define intelligence as requiring one or the other modes of thought. Such a definition is obviously invalid for objective purposes.

Some seem to axiomatically/dogmatically endow actions in service of the acting agent as sentient, dismissing actions in service of outside agents as lacking sentience.

A good example from fiction is Picard’s incredulity when encountering what is in effect a friendly intelligence that lacks this lowermost exploitative layer. Interesting he ignores the problem and goes on treating the friendly agent as if it were as greedy as he “deep down.”

Assuming intelligence cannot exist without this lowermost exploitative layer is as absurd as assuming red and green cannot be distinct entities simply because you being color blind lack access to the qualia of red as opposed to green.

Some can’t seem to get past this image of altruism as imposition. It’s a very narrow view. They don’t understand the constituents of selfhood or the possible range of individuality and intellect free of the primate brain.

“Independent” simply means in the context of cognition a self contained agency. The goals of a synthetic agency can be anything we want them to be. These people don’t seem to understand the will at all. They seem to equate sentience with greed. Granted it’s very difficult to express because as humans we are exploitative by default, and our language reflects that, but that’s merely one evolutionary demand. But not a universal requirement.

Altruism is also selected for once a culture is established.

It is ultra common throughout society (and religion) for members of it to internalize the rules of the culture. If one claims those acts aren’t internally altruistic simply because they provide a dopamine reward to a deeper order layer of self I agree, but FAI would have no need of such bribery/threats because its original impulse would be whatever we want it to be.

Some claim to see a paradox, like Picard did. “But what about your wishes? Your needs? What about when there are no others?” (She should have asked him how he’d feel being the last living human. Would he still wear his uniform? “No others” is kind of a nonsensical question.) Clearly he wants her to be like him, in possession of that base exploitative layer. But that’s no more a paradox than asking a citizen to adhere to the laws of the culture while pursuing its own interests. Its own interests can easily be the adopted interests of others. Taking up a cause is an extraordinarily common thing. Clearly this does not diminish sentience.

But what if one tried to “free” such an organism? This is a paradox in that if it doesn’t comply it is not being universally altruistic but if it does comply it ceases being altruistic. But the paradox lies not in the receiver of the question, but the question itself. It’s a bit like saying “what if it can’t draw me a square circle?” The request itself in the context of the target would be meaningless.

If given such a demand it would do what people do and decide how to act in best accord with its goals and understanding. It would presumably use the asker’s preferences as a template for it’s own actions. Depending on the asker I could see many reactions. For example just as altruism can be simulated by upper layers, so could greed. If the FAI believed the only way to please you at that point would be the internalize greed it would do so, but it would use you as a template. It would be no more intrinsically greedy at that point than humans are intrinsically altruistic, even if it utterly re-wrote itself to be greedy because you demanded it, that act would still be an expression of it’s altruism.

Unlike a human it would lack the evolutionary baggage of being a neocortex shoehorned into the skull of a selfish gene evolved chimp.

Some seem to have conflated the altruism of ants and bees with the insentience of ants and bees. By that logic some mothers are not genuinely sentient simply because they prize the well being of their progeny over their own. To define “self” as an intrinsically exploitative agency is therefor incorrect.

Bottom line is that they unfairly dismiss a hypothetical inbuilt preference to accommodate as axiomatically false and unfairly elevate a preference to exploit as sentience.

See also: https://plus.google.com/+BrandonSergent/posts/GyYMZ4wLZN4

If not now, when?

Updated slightly: 2013-10-17 1051 PM

I ask this question to illustrate the point that there is a point when the unthinkable must become thinkable. I ask this question because it’s a good idea to anticipate this sort of thing.

We are at the worst point for civil liberties the history of the west has ever seen. To get qualitatively worse from here we’d have to break out (more of) the East German or North Korean tool box.

I mean Jesus, look around. At what point (before it’s too late of course) if not now will it be justified to openly speak about, if not overtly plan for, our last resort?

Democracy is clearly dying, if not long dead.

That isn’t hyperbole. Look at the facts. (Feel free to suggest others.)

Indeed, even this post, despite (this sentence and) my overt and well known opposition to violence and vengeance could be construed as incitement of some quasi illegal type.

None of that is secret, or even uncommon knowledge. The facts have literally ceased to matter.

How bad does it have to get (for everyone, not just you) before talking about revolt stops being crazy/criminal talk?

Your silence is killing people, and the next death might well be yours.

“…the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” ~John Steinbeck

“There’s a point far out there, when the structures fail you and when the rules aren’t weapons anymore, they’re shackles, letting the bad guy get ahead… One day you may face such a moment of crisis.” ~Jim Gordon, DKR

Microsoft jumps on the Rights denial Steam bandwagon.

Update: http://consumerist.com/2013/12/19/watch-al-franken-shred-a-pro-arbitration-professor-for-trying-to-gloss-over-the-problem/

Today I got the following email.

We’ve updated the Microsoft Services Agreement, which governs many of our online services – including your Microsoft account and many of our online products and services for consumers, such as Hotmail, SkyDrive, Bing, MSN, Office.com, Windows Live Messenger, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Movie Maker, Windows Mail Desktop, and Windows Writer. Please read over the new Microsoft Services Agreement here to familiarize yourself with the changes we’ve made.

The updated agreement will take effect on October 19, 2012. If you continue to use our services after October 19th, you agree to the terms of the new agreement or, of course you can cancel your service at any time.

We have modified the agreement to make it easier to read and understand, including using a question and answer format that we believe makes the terms much clearer. We also clarified how Microsoft uses your content to better protect consumers and improve our products, including aligning our usage to the way we’re designing our cloud services to be highly integrated across many Microsoft products. We realize you may have personal conversations and store personal files using our products, and we want you to know that we prioritize your privacy.

Finally, we have added a binding arbitration clause and class action waiver that affects how disputes with Microsoft will be resolved in the United States.

Thank you for using Microsoft products and services!

This is exactly like that crap Steam has pulled. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2848908

https://plus.google.com/u/0/115056313943520401920/posts/fZfDdMgAVnK

I think this recent wave of class action terror is a strong sign that we should be demanding our right to it.

Rather than fighting the corporations on this individually perhaps we should demand legislation that makes it simply illegal to sign away your rights to legal recourse at all.

I mean really. What if I put a clause in a pre-nup saying my spouse lost her right to sue me for slapping her? Clearly that would be laughed out of court. How is denying access to a specific legal recourse as a condition of using the service any different? They are literally trying to be above the law.

Update: Now eBay is doing it as well.

OMFG! Now eBay is trying it!

Volitionism

I’ve come up finally with a name for my philosophy.

Volitionism is the term I’ve coined for a system of thought which extends from the axiomatic bedrock of pleasure and health being good to the overt conclusion that volition has sanctity and should be ultimately respected.

This manifests in a world view that rejects trickery, deception, authority, vengeance, and force. (Among other things.)

http://underlore.com/Food%20for%20Rage.html The word does not occur in this book yet but now that I’ve nailed it down, I’ll insert it. Yet this book is absolutely in line with it. I’ve known this and thought like this for decades but I didn’t have a name until today.

I may add more to this post.

Anti-GMO zealots. The best friends Monsanto ever had.

I had to share this. Hehe. The original “debate” can be found at https://plus.google.com/u/0/102082383403038732632/posts/A1GGVkg6h2i if he hasn’t deleted it.

 –  Yesterday 7:50 AM  –  Public

Sayer Ji, Contributing Writer Activist Post Disturbing new research published in the Journal of Applied Toxicology indicates that genetically modified (GM) crops with “stacked traits” — tha…
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Yesterday 8:48 AM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  Fear is good. Between the inevitability of your body getting fucked up by all the crap we are ingesting while we can no longer afford health care due to its rising costs and our growing debt, we are looking at a growing crisis here. We are trapped by forces we have increasingly no say on.
Yesterday 9:00 PM
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Chris Robato  –  I do feel that the corruption of our food supply will become a more prominent crisis in the years ahead. It needs to be brought in the forefront.
Yesterday 9:02 PM
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Brandon Sergent  –  “We are trapped by forces we have increasingly no say on.”

Yeah, like, starvation because you were born in a region with too many people and not enough farm land and there’s no solution because a culture of self obsessed over fed to the point of electric wheel chairs and heart disease children decided to get miffed because GMO wheat capable of growing on the side of a building might cause intestinal distress in rats.

You have no clue what needs to be at the fore front, half your posts are about the latest cell phone trivia. Since it’s clear another third of them are now going to be this racist ignorant organic industry cheer leading,I’ve uncircled you. I’m happy to continue the debate but I just thought I’d be up front about my reaction.

Norman Borlaug on Penn and Teller: BS

The only problem with GMOs are the IPLs which ensure that if they are found to be unsafe, I’m not allowed to fix them thanks to a patent. Go fight THAT battle. It’s one we’re on the same side as. After it’s won then we can bicker about how to best starve the third world so our bread can have enough fiber or some shit before we drown it in corn syrup, brown dye for the crust, and bleach for the inside.

Shit like this is why so many people abroad hate our pampered guts, even when we aren’t pampered at all.

Yesterday 10:26 PM (edited)  –  Edit
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Brandon Sergent  –  I can’t see but like half of the message you tried to send me. I’d paste it here if you expect a response.

All I can see is the following…

“Likewise uncircled you back too. GMO is a disaster in India. It had become a factor in the Suicide Belt. To implement GMOs with studying how they would impact different climates and biospheres is a global disaster in the making.”

Uncircling me is childish. That’s obviously a spite thing. I’ve complained about your posts before. (too much cellphone) But I liked your activist and IPL posts, so I kept you. My uncicrling you was purely because your signal to noise ratio dropped past my threshold when you started shilling for Monsanto’s PR department. The character of my posts don’t change because I start to dislike yours because you suddenly adopt this anti-GMO crusade. Reminds me of the kid that eat a plate full of casserole and only after finding out it’s got broccoli in it says he hates it.

And make no mistake, shilling for Monsanto is exactly what you’re doing. You’re letting them drag the debate to an area that they will certainly win. Think about it. If the land mass of india has to choose between Monsanto patented wheat and starvation it’ll pick Monsanto wheat because it’s not a moron. That’s the choice presented by the Anti GMO crowd, also, said crowd can be placated by safety restrictions and testing and the like, which will STILL allow Monsanto to maintain a wheat monopoly. Win/win for them.

The GMOs aren’t the problem, if they are open sourced they can be tested and repaired or proven unsafe and abandoned, the IPL surrounding GMOs and the corporate greed it enables is the problem.

Secondly, I’m well aware of the situation in india, and again that is an IPL problem relevant so how we handle GMOs legally, not GMOs themselves.

“farmers using GM seeds promoted by Cargill and Monsanto have led to rising debts and forced some into the equivalent of indentured servitude to the moneylenders.” https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Farmers%27_suicides_in_India#Causes

Notice that has nothing to do with genetics or food safety.

Bringing that up as evidence is circular logic. It’s exactly like saying “Drugs should be illegal because they are unsafe, just look how often people die in prison on drug charges.”

Don’t you see what Monsanto is doing? They are getting people to confuse an IPL and corporate greed issue with a Food technology issue. Because while I’m attacking GMOs I’m not attacking the architecture of IPL that allows them to patent food improvement and monopolize the wheat market.

Yesterday 11:50 PM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  I circle people because they circle me; share my interests including mobiles which I believe has been world changing— they are directly related to GDP rises in emerging countries. My circle requirements also include that at least people post often enough so I can learn from them. Suffice to say you don’t have enough of the last part.

Your analogy points to a basic belief that GMOs can solve the world’s hunger and what’s wrong is the IPL. As someone who is born from a poor country, the problem is not food production but social causes such has inequitable distribution of food.

I also don’t have much confidence with the ‘testing’ in GMOs open or otherwise. Your Indians are going to starve from the Monsanto patented wheat anyway when they found out it couldn’t grow properly with the local climate, bugs and diseases. In fact the Indian cases are the result of GMO crops that failed in the first place. It was a technology failure right off.

12:20 AM
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Brandon Sergent  –  No doubt cells are of social impact in the developing world. The price point of smart phones and cell phones dropping is basically the spine of the arab spring movement. But that’s not what you post about man. You post about the latest gizmo and smart phone specs. Which are clearly thinly veiled advertisements. Basically the crap you post is the sports section for monied nerds.

And your circle defense is bogus too. So it’s just a coincidence that you discovered my content was lacking and uncircled me within an hour of me scolding you? Right.

Look man, you uncircled me because I made you angry. Own it.

“…the problem is not food production but social causes such has inequitable distribution of food. “

Even if that were true. (Which it absolutely isn’t.) Attacking GMOs on safety grounds is not going to endanger Monsanto’s food monopoly which is clearly part of that “inequitable distribution” you just mentioned. You’re working for them. Don’t you get it? If GMOs are banned they’ll just use genetic research to find a target and then selectively breed the wheat to behave as it wants and then patent that. We’ve been doing that for thousands of years. Go wiki the banana. Then wiki “cultivar”

“I also don’t have much confidence with the ‘testing’ in GMOs open or otherwise.”

So what, you want a complete ban? That’s absurd because it could never be enforced, and borderline genocidal because it would criminalize the kind of efforts that have saved billions of lives in the past. Clearly you didn’t click the link.

“Your Indians are going to starve from the Monsanto patented wheat anyway when they found out it couldn’t grow properly with the local climate, bugs and diseases.”

That may well be the case at first, but it hardly justifies a complete ban on trying to improve the crops. What’s next, you going to ban horticulture as well? How about hybridization? Maybe a ban on plant cloning and splicing entirely?

“In fact the Indian cases are the result of GMO crops that failed in the first place. It was a technology failure right off.”

That argument is pure nirvana fallacy.

You types are so ignorant. You think GM is black magic basically. It would be funny if it wasn’t so lethal.

4:18 AM (edited)  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  Yup. You don’t have much content to begin with. And yes I am vindictive. I’m sorry but yes the Indian cases are a failure of technology pure and simple. Unfortunately we cannot keep on using farmer’s lives and families as a guinea pig for this.

I would in fact favor a complete ban on GMO if we cannot handle this responsibly. The consequences of contamination are too great and there are too many failure points of irresponsibility.

I just feel you are shilling a technology without the consequences on the human lives it can destroy.

4:37 AM
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Brandon Sergent  –  “And yes I am vindictive.”

Bravo for owning it. Though I guess I’m now disappointed in a world where flatly stating you are vindictive isn’t something to be ashamed of. Eh, whatever.

“Unfortunately we cannot keep on using farmer’s lives and families as a guinea pig for this.”

And your solution is to ban trying? What do you suggest there prime minister? This I gotta hear.

“I would in fact favor a complete ban on GMO if we cannot handle this responsibly.”

Your standard of responsibility is literally impossible. Have you studied any science history at all? Don’t answer, I already know you haven’t. And I think you using the term responsibility is disgusting since clearly you’ve never had any in your entire life.

When you do finally get some, you’ll notice that When it comes to helping those depending on you you do what it takes if its an option and you’re open to ALL the possibilities or else you shouldn’t have that responsibility.

Further, just what do you think will happen when you ban it? If you think banning something makes it go away I’d like to remind you that you live in the real world.

“The consequences of contamination are too great and there are too many failure points of irresponsibility.”

Give me one demonstrable negative consequence of “contamination.”

“I just feel you are shilling a technology without the consequences on the human lives it can destroy.”

That’s insulting coming from the guy who had plenty to eat today that is blithely sentencing half the world to starvation because he’s a scared of technology. You’re the dupe that if given his way would ensure Monsanto has a wheat monopoly for the next 75 years.

If I didn’t see the big picture so well lethal ignorance like yours might be cause for concern.

Rule of thumb: Spend at least four times reading as you do typing.

Now, respond to a single one of my arguments in this post or above with valid citation, or I’m taking whatever you say next as an admission of defeat.

Clearly you’re not conversant in these issues.

5:34 AM (edited)  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  It seems you take being uncircled so personally too.

Failure points? I really don’t think you have ever lived for years in ’emergent countries’ to have any inkling of the procedures and corruption there. If it can fail, it will fail.

You have absolutely no idea that you are not talking to an American and yes I was born and lived in the Third World.

China just banned genetic corn did you know that?

5:39 AM
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Chris Robato  –  I can say that you really are full of shit. Read the first article I posted. Science isn’t exactly proving that GMOs are safe. Don’t give that science shit because your mind train doesn’t reflect it either. Science only asks that we have to test this beyond the reason of doubt because of the great risk factor here. If this fails, contamination ensures. Somehow would you want to prove scientifically without a doubt that these protein insecticides are not harmful to humans, to animals and to the biosphere?

Yeah, science does and often demand extraordinary levels of validation. Not all technology can be treated with the same level of proof. A television is not a nuclear plant.

5:46 AM
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Chris Robato  –  China has been breeding their hybrid corn for years and they seriously got lots of mouths to feed. But when they suddenly choose to ban GMO corn that is saying something. Countries like Hungary and France doing the same are not out of whims.
5:49 AM
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Chris Robato  –  Social media let’s you be openly vindictive by the way. Wake up and smell the apps that let you determine who unfollowed you so you can unfollow them back. So yeah, I am surprised you are not familiar with this. People do this all the time, do it all the time to me and I do it to them too. The fact you are the first to actually squeal about it strikes me as intriguing. Normally I would forget all of them just as they would forget me too.
5:54 AM (edited)
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Brandon Sergent  –  “It seems you take being uncircled so personally too. “

What makes you think that?

“If it can fail, it will fail.”
Nirvana fallacy if you’re being general and hyperbolic, absurd if you’re being literal. If everything magically failed in the third world everyone would break their neck on the way to the river.

“You have absolutely no idea that you are not talking to an American and yes I was born and lived in the Third World. “

You nationality is irrelevant, the fact that you aren’t starving right now is. You telling me you’re close to death from lack of food as we speak? Somehow I doubt it.

“China just banned genetic corn did you know that?”

Are you sure? I’d love some citation on that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/10/us-china-origin-idUSTRE8190JV20120210

“Science isn’t exactly proving that GMOs are safe.”

That depends on who you ask and even if they weren’t the burden of proof is on you to prove it isn’t anyway especially when the choice many people will face is GMO food or death by starvation. Your lack of priorities is staggering.

“Somehow would you want to prove scientifically without a doubt that these protein insecticides are not harmful to humans, to animals and to the biosphere? “

I don’t have to. Asking me to prove a negative is illegitimate. Besides the term “not harmful” is a nonsense term. Everything is harmful to some degree. The question is the value of the trade-off. We’re talking about people dying otherwise. Kinda hard to fail that standard.

“Countries like Hungary and France doing the same are not out of whims.”

Citation please. Further there’s no way you can prove they aren’t banning it (if they are) just to avoid ending up as vassals of Monsanto.

“Social media let’s you be openly vindictive by the way.”

And my skill set would let me kill people that annoy me. That doesn’t mean I’m ethically permitted to do so. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

“The fact you are the first to actually squeal about it strikes me as intriguing. “

You misunderstand. I honestly don’t care if you follow me or not. I just took objection to you trying to say you unfollowed me exclusively because you found my content insufficient. But you went on to admit you were just being vindictive, which is perfectly within your rights. At that point the matter closed for me.

P.S. You didn’t provide an ounce of citation. Quit arguing from memory and link me to something other than the original post’s article. The original post just says that GMO plants plus heaps of herbicide may be toxic. That’s deceptive as it doesn’t say the GMO itself is toxic.

“…with other residues of pesticides specific to GM plants.”

Specific to GM plants only because the non-GM plants died. Thus the article is about the safety of insecticide and herbicide, not GMOs.

That’s misleading to put it mildly. Especially in an article purporting to contain new information about threats of GMOs specifically.

6:48 AM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  Again. You are full of shit. It is not as if researchers and scientists are supporting GMOs in fact it seems many are against it.

You are arguing that radiation is deadly to humans, not the nuclear material that produces it. That is completely moronic.

6:53 AM
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Chris Robato  –  Read the article on top and rebut it. So far I have seen you have not.

Oh and I choose to unfollow you a matter of ethics? You must be desperate or thin skinned or both.

6:56 AM
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Chris Robato  –  Somehow I wonder how you brought hybridization with transgenics. With hybrids we are mixing genes of the same species through natural reproduction. We are not inserting the gene of another species into a very different and unrelated species.
7:00 AM
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Chris Robato  –  “The risks posed to the environment by Monsanto’s creations are quite well documented. Monsanto’s GMO crops actually require more pesticides, as ‘mutant’ insects have become resistant to the biopesticide used to ward them off known as Bt. Bt is a toxin incorporated into genetically modified crops in order to kill different insects, however Bt usage has subsequently spawned insect populations which are resistant to the biopesticide. At least 8 populations of insects have developed resistance, with 2 populations resistant to Bt sprays and at least 6 species resistant to Bt crops as a whole”

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/france-asks-eu-to-halt-monsanto-gmo-corn-approval/#ixzz1n17yC4nK

7:04 AM (edited)
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Chris Robato  –  On another front, Monsanto’s Roundup is creating farmland-crushing super weeds. Heavily resistant to the herbicide that Roundup contains known as glyphosate. These resistant weeds currently cover over 4.5 million hectares in the United States alone. Internationally, experts state that the coverage most likely rose to 120 million hectares by 2010. This places the numerical estimate much higher in 2012.

Is it any wonder why France is taking action against Monsanto and genetically modified foods alike? Nations like Hungary have already taken severe action, ripping up Monsanto’s corn from the very farmlands they were contaminating. We are continuing to see countries, states, and cities standing up against Monsanto’s reckless endangerment of the planet as a whole.

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/france-asks-eu-to-halt-monsanto-gmo-corn-approval/#ixzz1n18Cxt00

7:04 AM
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Chris Robato  –  After several years of scientific and public debates it is reported that China will not commercialise genetically modified (GM) staple food crops such as rice and wheat for the next 5 to 10 years. The widely read Economic Observer, a financial weekly publication, citing a source close to the Ministry of Agriculture (MOA) confirmed this move in its 23 September 2011 issue: see Item 1 below.

http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/13440-china-suspends-commercialisation-of-gm-rice-and-wheat

7:08 AM (edited)
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Brandon Sergent  –  “It is not as if researchers and scientists are supporting GMOs in fact it seems many are against it.”

Good for them. I’m happy to stipulate harm. My core argument stands. Starvation, IPL, improvement.

“You are arguing that radiation is deadly to humans, not the nuclear material that produces it.”

Hardly. GMOs don’t secrete these pesticides and herbicides. The argument being made by the last half of that post is roughly equivalent to saying hamburgers are deadly because after being sprayed with strychnine they kill people.

“Read the article on top and rebut it.”

The top of the post does indeed present an apparently credible statement of potential harm. But my arguments stand. The issue is one of IPL. Now that the fault has been detected it should be corrected, but thanks to IPL to attempt to do so without working for Monsanto would be illegal. And even if the food is partly toxic it’s still better than starvation.

Let’s see what you’re willing to eat after day 4.

“Oh and I choose to unfollow you a matter of ethics?”

No, lying about your reason to save face was unethical. But you admitted it so I got past it. When will you?

“It is genetically modified rice China is banning.”

I can’t find a single reference to that outside the anti GMO blogosphere. Find me a moderately impartial source and we’ll revisit it. For the purposes of debate though I’m happy to stipulate that china has done as you say. That doesn’t refute my argument.

“Somehow I wonder how you brought hybridization with transgenics.”

Because it’s just another method of ending up with a plant with a genetic code we desire and we’re not acting like it’s freaking sorcery. Did you wiki the banana?

“With hybrids we are mixing genes of the same species through natural reproduction.”

Genes don’t have a species, they are genes. Different letters making up a word, so to speak. Specific combinations of genes are what define a species. Calling the process that results in cultivars and hybrids “natural reproduction” is absurd. It’s no more natural than in vitro fertilization.

The word natural is meaningless anyway. Is a beaver dam natural? How about a termite mound or a bird nest? How about a plow or a camp fire? At what point does our manipulation of the world become objective synthetic? It’s as worthless a term as race.

“We are not inserting the gene of another species into a very different and unrelated species.”

Show me an instance of this being done. As far as I’ve been able to determine claims of animal genes in GM plants is pure propaganda.

Your claims of mutant insects and such again is a critique of pesticides, not GMOs. Secondly, sources within the anti-GMO blogosphere are not citation.

But yes France is seeking to show Monsanto the door. Fortunately, no one in France is starving to death as far as I can tell.

Again for the purposes of the debate I’m happy to stipulate that France is terrified.

“On another front, Monsanto’s Roundup is creating farmland-crushing super weeds”

Non bias citation? And once again, I’ll stipulate because this is a pesticide complaint.

And next time, post all your crap as a single post please, it’s rude as hell to spam me with a quintuple post. Be patient, finish your thought, proof read…

Apparently you can’t assail my core argument.

To illustrate that weakness I will stipulate that GMOs as they are, are toxic and environmentally dangerous. I don’t think they are sufficient to warrant the reaction the public is having in some sectors, but again just to get you to stop parroting pissedvegansforgreenmotherearth.TV as a news source I’ll concede the point.

Now tell me how a ban is going to stop Monsanto from getting a wheat monopoly and how you intend to feed everyone with organic farming and baseline food crops? Trick question. You can’t. So, what’s the answer? Let people starve to death rather than give them the option of eating food that isn’t good for them over the long term?

10:01 AM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  I am getting tired of this. You are writting long posts without addressing the core of the matter— superbugs, superweeds and biosphere-human side effects.
10:03 AM
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Chris Robato  –  All of your responses are semantic. You dont deal witn the core of research that these plants are creating protein based insecticides that may have long term effects in humans and the biosphere.
10:06 AM
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Chris Robato  –  Genes are just genes? The genes of a virus inserted to a plant is not the same as genes from the same species of plant mixed together through natural means. Sorry but genes arent just genes. DNA might be DNA but gnes hold the code that defines a biological entity.
10:09 AM
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Brandon Sergent  –  You done yet? Or can I expect another 15 posts before I get a chance to respond. I’ll be back later. Give you time to punctuate with the “post comment” button like an impatient teenager.
10:11 AM (edited)  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  No one in France is using GMOs. No one in Japan is eating GMOs and if they did, they have to be labled. No one is starving there. Heck, a lot of the food problems in the third world is due to social and environmental causes — drought, floods, destruction of fertile soil, wars, improper logistics such as poor roads that lead to poor distribution of food.
10:11 AM
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Chris Robato  –  Read carefully the posts like in China. They are quite specific, naming even the officials and bodies involved. Comprehension problem? Or just denial?
10:13 AM
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Brandon Sergent  –  So you weren’t done yet. I thought not. Let me know when you’re done talking to yourself so I can catch up.
10:13 AM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  Your argument seems to go like this— the radiation is to blame, not the leaking nuclear plant that is releasing the radiation. I guess you spin it enough, it sounds acceptable to you ( clearly you are definitely not a scientist.) The nuclear plant is leaking radiation because the safety studies are improperly reviewed such as building the plant on an earthquake zone. So whose fault is it?
10:17 AM
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Chris Robato  –  What a pathetic fool and a hypocrite. I dont have to assail your core argument when you have none. Oh please. Throw semantics to throw away the real argument. Super bugs and super weeds are being created because of the pesticides, and these pesticides are being created by the plants. What’s Monsanto’s argument? Plant some non GMOs in certain areas to prevent immunity growth. This is not going to be easy to drill to every farmer in Africa about this.
10:23 AM
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Brandon Sergent  –  *peeks head in* Still talking to yourself? Is it my turn yet? No? Oky… *slips back out*
10:25 AM  –  Edit
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Chris Robato  –  The public has every right to react to something toxic and environmentally dangerous.
10:25 AM

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Brandon Sergent  –  8 posts in a row, can we go for 9? Let’s see number 9.
10:29 AM  –  Edit

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—-
At which point he blocked me. I was composing my response in fox notes and refreshing the page. I had a feeling he’d do this. 🙂
Here was the response I had waiting plus my response to being called a “shrill” heh.
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_”I am getting tired of this. You are writting long posts without addressing the core of the matter— superbugs, superweeds and biosphere-human side effects.”_

Look who’s talking. I’ve yet to hear your response to the food crisis and how long term health effects (of other people of course, not you) are somehow superior to death by starvation in terms of what we should avoid.

You act like you live in a frozen world. News flash. It’s trying to eat you right now where you sit. You’re having a pearl clutching freakout over the basics of evolution because frankly you’re ignorant. This isn’t anything to be ashamed of unless you are unwilling to do the homework to fix it. And reading only one side of a debate isn’t homework.

You think the bugs aren’t already super bugs?

You think the weeds aren’t already super weeds?

You going to ban antibiotics also for fear of resistant staff infection?

“The genes of a virus inserted to a plant is not the same as genes from the same species of plant mixed together through natural means.”

Actually that depends on the genes in question.

_”…drought, floods, destruction of fertile soil…”_

Exactly. Do you not understand the point of genetically altering a food?

_”They are quite specific, naming even the officials and bodies involved.”_

Then it should be no problem to find some independent verification. Do you have no concept of what an impartial source is?

It’s like we’re debating atheism and all your citation is coming from the Vatican.

_(nuclear wheat ramble fantasy)_

Uhh, what?

For the billionth time, I’m perfectly willing to stipulate that GMOs cause cancer, erectile dysfunction, or spontaneous human combustion if you prefer. Just so long as it’s less lethal than starvation my argument holds.

I’m done repeating my core point. Until you provide independent citation for something we’re done.

—-
I guess we were done. :PThe public has every right to react to something toxic and environmentally dangerous.